I find your comments so offensive. When growing up, I thought Jesus was all about love. Now, it seems, to be a Christian is all about conforming everyone to your viewpoint—which is one of exclusion. What you fail to realize is that by closing your minds to so many people because of their lifestyle/beliefs, you alienate so many others. And you wonder why religion no longer has a place in many individual’s lives! Any group that would support Donald Trump—a known liar, adulterer, insurrectionist—a truly disgusting individual—should never consider themselves Christian. I am not a believer…I lost that a long time ago, witnessing the hypocrisy within the church.
I feel you as well as many Christians are mislead. Christ NEVER turned a sinner away, He didn't refuse to associate based on their sins but on their self righteousness and refusal to place themselves in society as servants. As A Christian I have been hurt by the church so I do get what you are saying. Today I focus on relationship, NOT religion. Sadly there are those that don't realize there is a difference. But let me ask you, if I knew that there was a bridge out on the road that you were traveling how much would I have to hate you or not care about you to not try to keep you from going across that bridge? Alas the decision to cross that bridge that is out or to not cross that bridge is up to you not me and I have to allow you the right to make your own decision.
Nancy, I find it quite ironic that you are following Sean. Do you follow just to find offense, how is that the love of Jesus? Oh, that's right your not a believer, so then you a are acting out of the hypocrisy you state is in the church. The church is full of amazing sinners!! Jesus said, "the righteous don't need a Savior (they have themselves) I have come to save the lost (those that can admit their faults & failures) and lay them at the feetof Jesus. We can only find healing in this nation when men (& women) admit our need for the Savior. Our world is broken, the church is broken, the difference is: the (true) church has found forgiveness, the (true) church seeks to be transformed from our sin, the (true) church has put belief in Jesus Christ and his love for our sorry broken selves. I don't think you have a problem with Sean, I think you have a problem with Jesus, and your own sin. If we really look on both sides of the political isle we find an ABUNDANCE of sinful behavior, men & women in need of JESUS CHRIST THE SAVIOR. The difference here, Let Us Worship, is that Sean seeks to pull people back from the abyss of following govt like robots, it is God and God alone we worship not the king (little k) as in Daniel OT.... maybe read the story? Sometimes, people get so bent out of shape about Christianity, because they've never read THE BOOK. And then when they do, BOOM, God peels back the layers of doubt and unforgiveness that they themselves harbor.
Ps side note: Trump is just a man, with LOTS of faults LIKE Biden, Bush, Clinton, Obama, Reagan... etc, you name them, BUT God can use ANY man or woman he chooses for his purposes.....
You are right, to a point. In the NT times, they were under the rule of a brutal and oppressive dictatorship. In the US, power is held by the people, with certain specific powers delegated to the state to allow the state to serve the people. "We the People ... do hereby ordain and establish ...." I don't want to get into a full blown lesson here, so I will only add that the 10th Amendment makes very clear. where the bulk of power SHOULD rest: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
My next point is simply this. Like it or not, our founders understood that our nation was founded upon Christian principle. John Adams put it this way; “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” Our founding fathers were almost all Protestant Christians with a few Catholics sprinkled in. Nearly half were ministers. I could add quotes from Washington, Madison, Jefferson, Franklin, Rush, Hamilton, Sherman ... all of them really.
At this point the 1st Amendment is invariably brought up. But no where in the Constitution is the term "Wall of Separation" found, despite Rob Reiner's claims. That actually comes from a letter from then President Jefferson to the Baptists in Danbury CT who had written to him expressing concern in regards to an establishment of a state church. This was a situation the founders of the then new nation were all too familiar with. In fact, many were decedents of, and in some cases were people who had experienced persecution by the state church. It is in that context that, if we are to be intellectually honest, the 2nd Amendment must be understood. It was not a prohibition of religious values and principles government, but rather government control of religion.
Our founders understood or government to be founded upon Judaeo-Christian values, and our need to adhere to those values. They fully intended and expected that those who served would bring those beliefs and values with them. It's worth noting that they also saw voting and governing not as rights, rank, or privilege, but as a duty in which all should be expected to serve in their time.
In regards to laws, when Peter and John were admonished to cease teaching or speaking in the Name of Jesus, they replied "You can judge for yourselves—is it better to listen to you or to God? ...." There are a plethora of biblical characters who obeyed God rather than the authorities. Daniel, David, Esther, the Wise Men, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, John the Baptist, Paul .... even Jesus. Someone will no doubt bring up Romans 13. Fair enough, but remember, as I discussed earlier, in our government, "We the People" are, or should be the ultimate authority.
Again, you cite individuals who obey God rather than The Authorities of their day.
I agree - that is New Testament Christianity.
Romans 13 is an instruction to trust authorities to look after your good, and not to fight back with force. Quite obviously, looking at Paul's life, that doesn't mean to never use legal processes to stand up for your rights.
Similarly, Revelation 12 tells us to trust in Christ's shed blood, and if necessary be willing to shed ours when attacked or persecuted, without physically fighting back. Fighting back is unnecessary, because the victory has already been won by Christ's shed blood rather than through His followers being willing to shed other people's blood, so now we love enemies, turn the other cheek, and demonstrate love within the Kingdom community for those outside to see.
As a result Christians down the centuries have stood up for their rights, and often/usually been denied them, sufferring obediently as a result, with no thought of even how they could take over their particular national regime. Dominion, or dominating culture, is not a New Testament teaching.
But yes, individuals should obey God rather than The Authorities of their day, and stand up for their rights.
I agree - that is New Testament Christianity.
However, it's a huge stretch to go from there (followers of Jesus standing up for their rights but not using violence, and being willing to suffer as a result if necessary) to Christians taking power and using politics and the rule of law to enforce their interpretation of a Christian agenda on a wider society who do not follow Him, and legally and by force punish or exclude them if they live differently. We are instructed to be witnesses, not rulers.
Jesus instructed us not to rule like the Gentiles (Matthew 20), and rather than the positive approach of arguing for and lobbying on specific single issues until a democratic concensus and process falls in their favor, historically when Christians have tried to take power it has pretty much always gone wrong (start by reading about the Munster Rebellion, for example), and it has distorted the version of the faith being portrayed and the church pursuing it. It simply isn't what Jesus taught, and it's not what the New Testament Church did.
As for the US Constitution, it makes no difference to this. It's a non-sacred document open to different schools of interpretation and varied historical perspectives. It's no more timeless than any other imperfect national secular establishment, compared to the eternal Kingdom values as taught and modelled by Jesus. If you'd asked a devoted Soviet about their national values, they would also have said that it was all for the people, but in both cases the many are ruled by the few, with the establishment set up to favor those at the top in power and affluence.
The job of The Church is to follow Jesus, and He told us not to rule like the pagans and Gentiles in Matthew 20. When we start equally counterbalancing His teaching against recent constitutional frameworks, we really are in trouble.
To be clear, we must follow Christ, first and foremost. The US Constitution is the law of the land. It is the ultimate civil guide to how our government should function, and it makes very clear that the people ARE the final authorities. It is We the People who are the authorities, not those who are serving in government. Our founders knew and understood that.
That said, I am not sure exactly what your statement: "Christians taking power and using politics and the rule of law to enforce their interpretation of a Christian agenda on a wider society who do not follow Him, and legally and by force punish or exclude them if they live differently." refers to, however in most, if not all issues of morality the Bible is pretty clear on right and wrong, and if we are being honest, even without the Bible, we know .
"... for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them ...." Rom 2:14-15 (Also see Romans 1, starting around Verse 20.)
Our founders understood that if what they were doing was to stand it must be based upon Judaeo-Christian principles.
John Adams wrote shortly before the Declaration of Independence was finished: "I]t is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue."
Benjamin Franklin wrote in 1787; "[O]nly a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
George Washington in his farewell address (1796) wrote; "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of man and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connexions with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice?
And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. It is substantially true, that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. The rule, indeed, extends with more or less force to every species of free government. Who, that is a sincere friend to it, can look with indifference upon attempts to shake the foundation of the fabric?"
Dr. Benjamin Rush wrote "By renouncing the Bible, philosophers swing from their moorings upon all moral subjects. . . . It is the only correct map of the human heart that ever has been published. . . . All systems of religion, morals, and government not founded upon it [the Bible] must perish, and how consoling the thought, it will not only survive the wreck of these systems but the world itself. “The Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.” [Matthew 1:18]"
Charles Carroll said; Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime & pure, [and] which denounces against the wicked eternal misery, and [which] insured to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." BTW, Charles Carroll was the only Catholic signatory of the Declaration, and with 17 years of Jesuit Education, arguably the most educated of all the founders.
I could go on and on, there are dozens of similar quotes I could post. But those should be sufficient to make the point that our founders considered those Judaeo-Christian values and religion essential to good government and that absent them, government would fail.
Again, let me emphasize that our government is on of and by the people, and that as such it is our duty as citizens to vote, and to serve. When we as believers hide behind the four walls of our church, or behind arguments such as the one you presented, we turn our government over to those who do not know, let alone follow Christ. Yes Jesus did tell us not to rule like the pagans and gentiles, However the sense of rule in that verse is one of tyranny and complete domination. In fast one modern translation renders it thus: "Kings and those with great authority in this world rule oppressively over their subjects, like tyrants." It's not a reason or excuse to stay out of government, but an admonition to lead through service. That was in fact the founders intent from the start. They did not see government as a vocation, but as a service. They saw a Congress composed of citizen legislators who would serve for a time and then return home, not of career politicians as we have now. They saw government as a ground up organization, with servant leaders, not the top down organization with professional legislators and bureaucrats telling the people how they are to serve.
Ultimately, yes. That is why we follow Jesus first and foremost. However in Genesis 1:26 God gives us the authority to rule over the earth. Government is a part of that authority, the Hebrew word used there Radah can mean; dominate, direct, lead, control, subdue, i.e., manage or govern an entity, people or government with considerable or forceful authority.
In this country, that governmental entity is our Federal Republic and our various democratically elected state and local governments. They operate under his authority as our civil government.
One correction, we have three branches in our Federal Government, the Judicial is one along with the Executive and Legislative. Our founders in their wisdom established them with a balance of power and authority. Unfortunately, people being people they have all taken authority never authorized under the Constitution. Whole books have been written on this so I'm not going to try and cover the subject here.
No way!!! Christians have taken to ARMS FIR CENTURIES TO FIGHT FIR THE RIGHT TO HAVE GOD IN GOVT AND PROTECT OUR FREEDOMS. How do you think we escaped TYRANNY FROM THE THRONE !? King James would Not even allow the ‘subjects’ to have their Own Bibles! No!! He mandated that ONLY HE COULD READ THE WORD OF GOD FROM THE PULPIT!! Thats Anarchy, CONTROL- NOT FREEDOM AND NOT CHRIST
Jesus also convicted sinners and heretics for their sinful ways-but if repentant He offered 100% forgiveness. He NEVER TOLERATED SIN- NEVER- snd neither must we!! We dont have to ACCEPT corrupt evil government leaders who are contrary to God’s HOLY WORD or coups or a society confused and contaminated by Satan. We pray for our enemy- we LOVE our enemy, only possible through Hi Holy Spirit - but nowhere are we taught to just accept or allow sins and temptations to exist. We must show Christ in ALL aspects NOT JUST LOVE-
As children are to be taught- WE LOVE THEM AND THATS WHY WE DISCIPLINE THEM AND ENFORCE BOUNDARIES. Love ALONE is Not enough. God disciplines His followers or we would never learn the difference in His Right and the devil’s WRONG. We want NO soul to go to hell. But Satan IS the prince of the earth and we must be clear to those who follow him, not holiness. Otherwise we arent fulfilling OUR job as Christians here in our short term where hell reigns. True born-agains strive to reach as MANY lost in our lifetimes so we aren't the ONLY ones who have eternal peace and joy with HIM. Now THATS true LOVE. Daring to speak the Gospel BOLDLY
He DID tolerate sin or He would've never had disciples as ALL have sinned fall short... Jesus knew HOW to give the compassion and understanding to help the people decide for themselves to repent and turn away. He had a way of making people want to do that and it's the same choice that we all have today. He's not going to force obedience he's not going to force righteousness. He encourages the love for him that creates the need in US to soften our hearts and allow the Holy Spirit to change us
It is sad to see the "I am offended" game being used so often. Being a Christian is conforming my mind and spirit to that of God. Politics is a separate issue. Unfortunately, the religion of Leftism/Progressivism has overtaken much of one party and our society. Love has been mutated into a mantra, "love is love." This is blatantly false. C.S. Lewis described The Four Loves eloquently and truthfully in his book of that title. I love my wife, pizza, my dogs, and Jesus. These are vastly different loves. I hope that you and many people of good will may reconsider your straw man arguments and open your mind to the truth. The opposing religion is gaining ground. Lastly, I pray that you do not let the "hypocrisy within the church" define your salvation and relationship with Jesus. Show me a person and I'll show you a hypocrite (I see one in the mirror). Aloha & blessings...
He committed adultery & murder among other sins however he was a man of repentance always seeking after God’s own heart!
I may not like Trumps personality or his behavior but I would rather vote for a candidate who is fighting for our religious rights, sanctity of marriage & protecting the life of an unborn baby than the current lying, Evil murderous administration !!!!!
A vote for Biden is being complicit with murder and all the other evil he stands for. A no vote is the very same. Just put it down as backsliding and being irrelevant!
I can be all things to all men, but I cannot disobey God. So when we as Christians acquiesce to the demands of a fringe noisy abomination group, we have to stand up for ourselves. Sure, Jesus is all about love, but He also flipped tables on moneychangers using the Temple as a swap meet. He also had some harsh words for Pharisees who were hypocrites and put additional demands over God's Law. We're not about religion; we're about a relationship with the Living God, but if we aren't standing up for ourselves, we'll be slaves to a godless, lawless group of criminals. Enough!
I would LOVE to believe this. But when I read Revelation, and see how divided the modern church (especially in USA) is. Along with all the false, spin offs of Christianity there are (New Age, Scientology, Megachurch phonies, black Jeremiah Wright-Obama churches, etc. . Negative, Jesus is going to spew them out of his mouth-Just as he said "because they were neither hot nor cold" (basically means they stood for nothing).
God Cannot look upon skin except through the veil of the blood of Jesus Christ. Sinful nations in history have proven God’s wrath. When a nation is consumed with sin and self destruction, God will either destroy that nation himself or let them continue on the path to full self destruction. He made sure the prophets told us that in his Bible.
Yes of course there is forgiveness through Jesus Christ but we must repent and ask for it. Only God knows His plan for America. One thing we know for sure through His writing in the Revelation Is that this nation will not be one of the surviving nations close to the end time. We could be witnessing that demise Or God could have a purpose for letting us get this close to destruction and may have a plan prepared to bring us back up once again as an example for the world where a nation who returns to God can turn around and live for him once again. I pray for that or for Christ to come either way Christians are reassured by their faith that we are secure in HIM
It's fine to bear witness and believe what you would like, but that is way different than 'taking back America.' There HAS to be separation of church and state, you can't force people to believe what you believe. You can't force Biblical laws on people of other faiths. People died for religious freedom in this country. Your plans are going to backfire. Majority of Americans believe in separation of church and state.
I challenge you to find the term "Separation of Church and State" anywhere in the Constitution. It's not there, it was penned once, by Jefferson. The context was his reply to their concerns regarding the potential establishment of an official state religion. Jefferson was reassuring him that the Constitution protected against such things.
Our founders were very clear that our Nation was founded upon Christian values . I already discussed them in some depth above, so I will not repeat it here.
Main articles: Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause
Thomas Jefferson, the third President of the United States, whose letter to the Danbury Baptists Association is often quoted in debates regarding the separation of church and state
In English, the exact term is an offshoot of the phrase, "wall of separation between church and state", as written in Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802. In that letter, referencing the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, Jefferson writes:
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State.[6]
Jefferson was describing to the Baptists that the United States Bill of Rights prevents the establishment of a national church, and in so doing they did not have to fear government interference in their right to expressions of religious conscience. The Bill of Rights, adopted in 1791 as ten amendments to the Constitution of the United States, was one of the earliest political expressions against the political establishment of religion. Others were the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, also authored by Jefferson and adopted by Virginia in 1786; and the French Declaration of the Rights of the Man and of the Citizen of 1789.
The metaphor "a wall of separation between Church and State" used by Jefferson in the above quoted letter became a part of the First Amendment jurisprudence of the U.S. Supreme Court. It was first used by Chief Justice Morrison Waite in Reynolds v. United States (1878). American historian George Bancroft was consulted by Waite in the Reynolds case regarding the views on establishment by the framers of the U.S. constitution. Bancroft advised Waite to consult Jefferson. Waite then discovered the above quoted letter in a library after skimming through the index to Jefferson's collected works according to historian Don Drakeman.[30]
Not the context AT ALL. Missed the WHOLE POINT of GOD IN THE FORMING OF THIS FREE NATION. Without God there IS NO FREEDOM- as you see now happening to America. More and more CONTROL and its NOT GODLY CONTROL- the EVIL IS OUT OF CONTROL. And thats on us Gods CHURCH who STOOD QUIETLY BY AND LET IT GROW LIKE A CANCER
Exactly. It is not a part of the Constitution, but quoted as a part of interpreting it. Something that can be argued. The Supreme Court has not always been right or wise, perhaps most glaringly so in Plessy v. Ferguson which made segregation the law of the land. It is important to understand that the churches in the days of and following our founding were anything but apolitical. Fiery speeches were preached against the King, for and against the Constitution, endorsing or condemning various political favors, against slavery, and for other important areas of social reform.
Even after Reynolds, churches remained politically active from the pulpit until Johnson Amendment was passed in 1954. Historically it was a result of LBJs efforts to muzzle 501c3 organizations he saw as supporting his rival for re-election it's passage was a little hinky, slipped in with no explanation, no evaluation by committee, and passed on a voice vote, . (It appears that it was not the first time LBJ did some sharp maneuvering. According to the NYT, he won his first primary election in a runoff through ballot fraud. https://www.nytimes.com/1990/02/11/us/how-johnson-won-election-he-d-lost.html Many pastors have ignored it since then, some even sending transcripts of their sermons to the IRS challenging them to take action. I know of only two cases of attempted enforcement, and as far as I can determine both were dropped by the IRS on appeal. Curiously, there is no such prohibition of 501c4 organizations belonging to those very same 501c3s.
Since you went there, the fight for religious freedom was because the Christians in England were tired of the Church of England telling them what they had to belive about the Bible and Christianity. It was the GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE IN RELIGION that created the problem. Between that and heavy taxation, a war was inevitable.
No!! THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE. Without God and His church (believers) WE WOULD HAVE NO ‘STATE’ — NO GOVT. HE created it ALL thru founding fathers who prayed their way through the Constitution CAREFULLY addressing EVERY possible issue life would bring along!! It is WHOLLY AND HOLY BASED ON GOD’s WORD AND WE MUST ELECT GODLY BIBLICAL LIVING LEADERS OR LIKE OTHER NATIONS who have gone to destruction, so will we. THAT INE THING- GOD- IS WHAT MADE AMERICA GREAT. WE MUST STAND FOR THOSE PRINCIPLES OR WE WILL GO DIWN JUST LIKE BABYLON, SODOM AND GOMORRAH . GOD FORBID
😞Very sad that American Christians are “localised” believing if America can change, the rest of the World will follow their example!
This 3rd & final Matt. 24:14 “❤️🔥AWAKENING❤️🔥” (According to Gods perfect Plan - Not flesh based American Christians)… Was clearly Prophesied by Christ before He Ascended in this Scripture to include… “EVERY TONGUE, EVERY TRIBE & EVERY NATION” - The Ground around the Cross is level where everyone (Slave/Free, Male/Female, Gentile/Jew, American/Other are of equal importance!!!
I (“Not” from America) have been Downloading & Posting (As Led) from God about this “❤️🔥AWAKENING❤️🔥” since 13th November 2013 founded on Habakkuk 2:2&3… Contrary to American Christians seeking It… ITS “ALREADY” HERE, KICKSTARTED ON CIRCUMCISION SUNDAY 12/31/23 (1,2,3…1,2,3)… But “starts” FIRST with a Matt. 16:17-19 🔥Taking Away” (Binding) & only then “Replacing” (Loosing)🔥” in, through & from Gods John 3:3 “People”! (⛔️Any other way is of the flesh & Psalm 127:1: “Labouring in vain” for NOT Building It Gods Way!)
For more understanding & insight go to my FB Page of 10+ years: “A CALL FROM THE LORD”! Blessings, N
I find your comments so offensive. When growing up, I thought Jesus was all about love. Now, it seems, to be a Christian is all about conforming everyone to your viewpoint—which is one of exclusion. What you fail to realize is that by closing your minds to so many people because of their lifestyle/beliefs, you alienate so many others. And you wonder why religion no longer has a place in many individual’s lives! Any group that would support Donald Trump—a known liar, adulterer, insurrectionist—a truly disgusting individual—should never consider themselves Christian. I am not a believer…I lost that a long time ago, witnessing the hypocrisy within the church.
You're not alone.
https://seanfeucht.substack.com/p/how-do-we-change-america-overnight/comment/52345000
Maybe you've only lost belief in the church as it is now, rather than the teachings of the one they are supposed to follow.
https://seanfeucht.substack.com/p/how-do-we-change-america-overnight/comment/52235700
I feel you as well as many Christians are mislead. Christ NEVER turned a sinner away, He didn't refuse to associate based on their sins but on their self righteousness and refusal to place themselves in society as servants. As A Christian I have been hurt by the church so I do get what you are saying. Today I focus on relationship, NOT religion. Sadly there are those that don't realize there is a difference. But let me ask you, if I knew that there was a bridge out on the road that you were traveling how much would I have to hate you or not care about you to not try to keep you from going across that bridge? Alas the decision to cross that bridge that is out or to not cross that bridge is up to you not me and I have to allow you the right to make your own decision.
Nancy, I find it quite ironic that you are following Sean. Do you follow just to find offense, how is that the love of Jesus? Oh, that's right your not a believer, so then you a are acting out of the hypocrisy you state is in the church. The church is full of amazing sinners!! Jesus said, "the righteous don't need a Savior (they have themselves) I have come to save the lost (those that can admit their faults & failures) and lay them at the feetof Jesus. We can only find healing in this nation when men (& women) admit our need for the Savior. Our world is broken, the church is broken, the difference is: the (true) church has found forgiveness, the (true) church seeks to be transformed from our sin, the (true) church has put belief in Jesus Christ and his love for our sorry broken selves. I don't think you have a problem with Sean, I think you have a problem with Jesus, and your own sin. If we really look on both sides of the political isle we find an ABUNDANCE of sinful behavior, men & women in need of JESUS CHRIST THE SAVIOR. The difference here, Let Us Worship, is that Sean seeks to pull people back from the abyss of following govt like robots, it is God and God alone we worship not the king (little k) as in Daniel OT.... maybe read the story? Sometimes, people get so bent out of shape about Christianity, because they've never read THE BOOK. And then when they do, BOOM, God peels back the layers of doubt and unforgiveness that they themselves harbor.
Ps side note: Trump is just a man, with LOTS of faults LIKE Biden, Bush, Clinton, Obama, Reagan... etc, you name them, BUT God can use ANY man or woman he chooses for his purposes.....
Some of us follow this page because it is TERRIFYING and unbelievable. We have a right to be here.
You’re totally deceived like millions others.
There is no mandate or instruction in the New Testament to use politics or legislation to force Christian laws on people who don't believe.
Matthew 20:25-26: Don't be tyrants like the Gentiles. Be servants.
It's ok to fight through the law when personally persecuted, like Paul in the example Sean quotes, and like Christians all down the ages.
But that's not the same as trying to make laws force others to behave more like Christians when they aren't.
This is not an inviting strategy.
We are supposed to demonstrate a loving counter culture within society, not force behavior on non believers.
Jesus said that people would know we are His Disciples because we love one another.
He did not say people will choose to follow Him if we take over and force them to behave.
You are right, to a point. In the NT times, they were under the rule of a brutal and oppressive dictatorship. In the US, power is held by the people, with certain specific powers delegated to the state to allow the state to serve the people. "We the People ... do hereby ordain and establish ...." I don't want to get into a full blown lesson here, so I will only add that the 10th Amendment makes very clear. where the bulk of power SHOULD rest: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
My next point is simply this. Like it or not, our founders understood that our nation was founded upon Christian principle. John Adams put it this way; “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” Our founding fathers were almost all Protestant Christians with a few Catholics sprinkled in. Nearly half were ministers. I could add quotes from Washington, Madison, Jefferson, Franklin, Rush, Hamilton, Sherman ... all of them really.
At this point the 1st Amendment is invariably brought up. But no where in the Constitution is the term "Wall of Separation" found, despite Rob Reiner's claims. That actually comes from a letter from then President Jefferson to the Baptists in Danbury CT who had written to him expressing concern in regards to an establishment of a state church. This was a situation the founders of the then new nation were all too familiar with. In fact, many were decedents of, and in some cases were people who had experienced persecution by the state church. It is in that context that, if we are to be intellectually honest, the 2nd Amendment must be understood. It was not a prohibition of religious values and principles government, but rather government control of religion.
Our founders understood or government to be founded upon Judaeo-Christian values, and our need to adhere to those values. They fully intended and expected that those who served would bring those beliefs and values with them. It's worth noting that they also saw voting and governing not as rights, rank, or privilege, but as a duty in which all should be expected to serve in their time.
In regards to laws, when Peter and John were admonished to cease teaching or speaking in the Name of Jesus, they replied "You can judge for yourselves—is it better to listen to you or to God? ...." There are a plethora of biblical characters who obeyed God rather than the authorities. Daniel, David, Esther, the Wise Men, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, John the Baptist, Paul .... even Jesus. Someone will no doubt bring up Romans 13. Fair enough, but remember, as I discussed earlier, in our government, "We the People" are, or should be the ultimate authority.
Again, you cite individuals who obey God rather than The Authorities of their day.
I agree - that is New Testament Christianity.
Romans 13 is an instruction to trust authorities to look after your good, and not to fight back with force. Quite obviously, looking at Paul's life, that doesn't mean to never use legal processes to stand up for your rights.
Similarly, Revelation 12 tells us to trust in Christ's shed blood, and if necessary be willing to shed ours when attacked or persecuted, without physically fighting back. Fighting back is unnecessary, because the victory has already been won by Christ's shed blood rather than through His followers being willing to shed other people's blood, so now we love enemies, turn the other cheek, and demonstrate love within the Kingdom community for those outside to see.
As a result Christians down the centuries have stood up for their rights, and often/usually been denied them, sufferring obediently as a result, with no thought of even how they could take over their particular national regime. Dominion, or dominating culture, is not a New Testament teaching.
But yes, individuals should obey God rather than The Authorities of their day, and stand up for their rights.
I agree - that is New Testament Christianity.
However, it's a huge stretch to go from there (followers of Jesus standing up for their rights but not using violence, and being willing to suffer as a result if necessary) to Christians taking power and using politics and the rule of law to enforce their interpretation of a Christian agenda on a wider society who do not follow Him, and legally and by force punish or exclude them if they live differently. We are instructed to be witnesses, not rulers.
Jesus instructed us not to rule like the Gentiles (Matthew 20), and rather than the positive approach of arguing for and lobbying on specific single issues until a democratic concensus and process falls in their favor, historically when Christians have tried to take power it has pretty much always gone wrong (start by reading about the Munster Rebellion, for example), and it has distorted the version of the faith being portrayed and the church pursuing it. It simply isn't what Jesus taught, and it's not what the New Testament Church did.
As for the US Constitution, it makes no difference to this. It's a non-sacred document open to different schools of interpretation and varied historical perspectives. It's no more timeless than any other imperfect national secular establishment, compared to the eternal Kingdom values as taught and modelled by Jesus. If you'd asked a devoted Soviet about their national values, they would also have said that it was all for the people, but in both cases the many are ruled by the few, with the establishment set up to favor those at the top in power and affluence.
The job of The Church is to follow Jesus, and He told us not to rule like the pagans and Gentiles in Matthew 20. When we start equally counterbalancing His teaching against recent constitutional frameworks, we really are in trouble.
To be clear, we must follow Christ, first and foremost. The US Constitution is the law of the land. It is the ultimate civil guide to how our government should function, and it makes very clear that the people ARE the final authorities. It is We the People who are the authorities, not those who are serving in government. Our founders knew and understood that.
That said, I am not sure exactly what your statement: "Christians taking power and using politics and the rule of law to enforce their interpretation of a Christian agenda on a wider society who do not follow Him, and legally and by force punish or exclude them if they live differently." refers to, however in most, if not all issues of morality the Bible is pretty clear on right and wrong, and if we are being honest, even without the Bible, we know .
"... for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them ...." Rom 2:14-15 (Also see Romans 1, starting around Verse 20.)
Our founders understood that if what they were doing was to stand it must be based upon Judaeo-Christian principles.
John Adams wrote shortly before the Declaration of Independence was finished: "I]t is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue."
Benjamin Franklin wrote in 1787; "[O]nly a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
George Washington in his farewell address (1796) wrote; "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of man and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connexions with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice?
And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. It is substantially true, that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. The rule, indeed, extends with more or less force to every species of free government. Who, that is a sincere friend to it, can look with indifference upon attempts to shake the foundation of the fabric?"
Dr. Benjamin Rush wrote "By renouncing the Bible, philosophers swing from their moorings upon all moral subjects. . . . It is the only correct map of the human heart that ever has been published. . . . All systems of religion, morals, and government not founded upon it [the Bible] must perish, and how consoling the thought, it will not only survive the wreck of these systems but the world itself. “The Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.” [Matthew 1:18]"
Charles Carroll said; Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime & pure, [and] which denounces against the wicked eternal misery, and [which] insured to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." BTW, Charles Carroll was the only Catholic signatory of the Declaration, and with 17 years of Jesuit Education, arguably the most educated of all the founders.
I could go on and on, there are dozens of similar quotes I could post. But those should be sufficient to make the point that our founders considered those Judaeo-Christian values and religion essential to good government and that absent them, government would fail.
Again, let me emphasize that our government is on of and by the people, and that as such it is our duty as citizens to vote, and to serve. When we as believers hide behind the four walls of our church, or behind arguments such as the one you presented, we turn our government over to those who do not know, let alone follow Christ. Yes Jesus did tell us not to rule like the pagans and gentiles, However the sense of rule in that verse is one of tyranny and complete domination. In fast one modern translation renders it thus: "Kings and those with great authority in this world rule oppressively over their subjects, like tyrants." It's not a reason or excuse to stay out of government, but an admonition to lead through service. That was in fact the founders intent from the start. They did not see government as a vocation, but as a service. They saw a Congress composed of citizen legislators who would serve for a time and then return home, not of career politicians as we have now. They saw government as a ground up organization, with servant leaders, not the top down organization with professional legislators and bureaucrats telling the people how they are to serve.
God IS GOVERNMENT! He created All things including the 3 judicial systems of Government
Ultimately, yes. That is why we follow Jesus first and foremost. However in Genesis 1:26 God gives us the authority to rule over the earth. Government is a part of that authority, the Hebrew word used there Radah can mean; dominate, direct, lead, control, subdue, i.e., manage or govern an entity, people or government with considerable or forceful authority.
In this country, that governmental entity is our Federal Republic and our various democratically elected state and local governments. They operate under his authority as our civil government.
One correction, we have three branches in our Federal Government, the Judicial is one along with the Executive and Legislative. Our founders in their wisdom established them with a balance of power and authority. Unfortunately, people being people they have all taken authority never authorized under the Constitution. Whole books have been written on this so I'm not going to try and cover the subject here.
No way!!! Christians have taken to ARMS FIR CENTURIES TO FIGHT FIR THE RIGHT TO HAVE GOD IN GOVT AND PROTECT OUR FREEDOMS. How do you think we escaped TYRANNY FROM THE THRONE !? King James would Not even allow the ‘subjects’ to have their Own Bibles! No!! He mandated that ONLY HE COULD READ THE WORD OF GOD FROM THE PULPIT!! Thats Anarchy, CONTROL- NOT FREEDOM AND NOT CHRIST
Jesus also convicted sinners and heretics for their sinful ways-but if repentant He offered 100% forgiveness. He NEVER TOLERATED SIN- NEVER- snd neither must we!! We dont have to ACCEPT corrupt evil government leaders who are contrary to God’s HOLY WORD or coups or a society confused and contaminated by Satan. We pray for our enemy- we LOVE our enemy, only possible through Hi Holy Spirit - but nowhere are we taught to just accept or allow sins and temptations to exist. We must show Christ in ALL aspects NOT JUST LOVE-
As children are to be taught- WE LOVE THEM AND THATS WHY WE DISCIPLINE THEM AND ENFORCE BOUNDARIES. Love ALONE is Not enough. God disciplines His followers or we would never learn the difference in His Right and the devil’s WRONG. We want NO soul to go to hell. But Satan IS the prince of the earth and we must be clear to those who follow him, not holiness. Otherwise we arent fulfilling OUR job as Christians here in our short term where hell reigns. True born-agains strive to reach as MANY lost in our lifetimes so we aren't the ONLY ones who have eternal peace and joy with HIM. Now THATS true LOVE. Daring to speak the Gospel BOLDLY
He DID tolerate sin or He would've never had disciples as ALL have sinned fall short... Jesus knew HOW to give the compassion and understanding to help the people decide for themselves to repent and turn away. He had a way of making people want to do that and it's the same choice that we all have today. He's not going to force obedience he's not going to force righteousness. He encourages the love for him that creates the need in US to soften our hearts and allow the Holy Spirit to change us
It is sad to see the "I am offended" game being used so often. Being a Christian is conforming my mind and spirit to that of God. Politics is a separate issue. Unfortunately, the religion of Leftism/Progressivism has overtaken much of one party and our society. Love has been mutated into a mantra, "love is love." This is blatantly false. C.S. Lewis described The Four Loves eloquently and truthfully in his book of that title. I love my wife, pizza, my dogs, and Jesus. These are vastly different loves. I hope that you and many people of good will may reconsider your straw man arguments and open your mind to the truth. The opposing religion is gaining ground. Lastly, I pray that you do not let the "hypocrisy within the church" define your salvation and relationship with Jesus. Show me a person and I'll show you a hypocrite (I see one in the mirror). Aloha & blessings...
I know quite a few Christians who say the can't vote for Trump because he screwed around on his wife.
That is true. On the other hand, let he who is without sin ... Regardless, they should do a deep dive on the alternative. A non vote is still a vote.
I agree 💯
just sayin...i guess a lot don't (yet?🙏)
Re-READ the history of King David!
He committed adultery & murder among other sins however he was a man of repentance always seeking after God’s own heart!
I may not like Trumps personality or his behavior but I would rather vote for a candidate who is fighting for our religious rights, sanctity of marriage & protecting the life of an unborn baby than the current lying, Evil murderous administration !!!!!
I pray that he has repented. I recall that he once said he had never needed to ask God for forgiveness.
Beware of idolizing any politician; and former President Trump is one of those!
How can we worship a fallible man? We just want the best person for the job!
A vote for Biden is being complicit with murder and all the other evil he stands for. A no vote is the very same. Just put it down as backsliding and being irrelevant!
Christians have had their head buried in the sand for way too long
Not most, but those who have stayed silent and inactive need to step up to the plate now. May yhe Holy Spirit stir their souls🙏🙏🙏
So has the rest of this country
Well don’t do it he’s not God.
I can be all things to all men, but I cannot disobey God. So when we as Christians acquiesce to the demands of a fringe noisy abomination group, we have to stand up for ourselves. Sure, Jesus is all about love, but He also flipped tables on moneychangers using the Temple as a swap meet. He also had some harsh words for Pharisees who were hypocrites and put additional demands over God's Law. We're not about religion; we're about a relationship with the Living God, but if we aren't standing up for ourselves, we'll be slaves to a godless, lawless group of criminals. Enough!
I would LOVE to believe this. But when I read Revelation, and see how divided the modern church (especially in USA) is. Along with all the false, spin offs of Christianity there are (New Age, Scientology, Megachurch phonies, black Jeremiah Wright-Obama churches, etc. . Negative, Jesus is going to spew them out of his mouth-Just as he said "because they were neither hot nor cold" (basically means they stood for nothing).
God Cannot look upon skin except through the veil of the blood of Jesus Christ. Sinful nations in history have proven God’s wrath. When a nation is consumed with sin and self destruction, God will either destroy that nation himself or let them continue on the path to full self destruction. He made sure the prophets told us that in his Bible.
Yes of course there is forgiveness through Jesus Christ but we must repent and ask for it. Only God knows His plan for America. One thing we know for sure through His writing in the Revelation Is that this nation will not be one of the surviving nations close to the end time. We could be witnessing that demise Or God could have a purpose for letting us get this close to destruction and may have a plan prepared to bring us back up once again as an example for the world where a nation who returns to God can turn around and live for him once again. I pray for that or for Christ to come either way Christians are reassured by their faith that we are secure in HIM
It's fine to bear witness and believe what you would like, but that is way different than 'taking back America.' There HAS to be separation of church and state, you can't force people to believe what you believe. You can't force Biblical laws on people of other faiths. People died for religious freedom in this country. Your plans are going to backfire. Majority of Americans believe in separation of church and state.
I challenge you to find the term "Separation of Church and State" anywhere in the Constitution. It's not there, it was penned once, by Jefferson. The context was his reply to their concerns regarding the potential establishment of an official state religion. Jefferson was reassuring him that the Constitution protected against such things.
Our founders were very clear that our Nation was founded upon Christian values . I already discussed them in some depth above, so I will not repeat it here.
Jefferson and the Bill of Rights
Main articles: Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause
Thomas Jefferson, the third President of the United States, whose letter to the Danbury Baptists Association is often quoted in debates regarding the separation of church and state
In English, the exact term is an offshoot of the phrase, "wall of separation between church and state", as written in Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802. In that letter, referencing the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, Jefferson writes:
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State.[6]
Jefferson was describing to the Baptists that the United States Bill of Rights prevents the establishment of a national church, and in so doing they did not have to fear government interference in their right to expressions of religious conscience. The Bill of Rights, adopted in 1791 as ten amendments to the Constitution of the United States, was one of the earliest political expressions against the political establishment of religion. Others were the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, also authored by Jefferson and adopted by Virginia in 1786; and the French Declaration of the Rights of the Man and of the Citizen of 1789.
The metaphor "a wall of separation between Church and State" used by Jefferson in the above quoted letter became a part of the First Amendment jurisprudence of the U.S. Supreme Court. It was first used by Chief Justice Morrison Waite in Reynolds v. United States (1878). American historian George Bancroft was consulted by Waite in the Reynolds case regarding the views on establishment by the framers of the U.S. constitution. Bancroft advised Waite to consult Jefferson. Waite then discovered the above quoted letter in a library after skimming through the index to Jefferson's collected works according to historian Don Drakeman.[30]
Not the context AT ALL. Missed the WHOLE POINT of GOD IN THE FORMING OF THIS FREE NATION. Without God there IS NO FREEDOM- as you see now happening to America. More and more CONTROL and its NOT GODLY CONTROL- the EVIL IS OUT OF CONTROL. And thats on us Gods CHURCH who STOOD QUIETLY BY AND LET IT GROW LIKE A CANCER
Exactly. It is not a part of the Constitution, but quoted as a part of interpreting it. Something that can be argued. The Supreme Court has not always been right or wise, perhaps most glaringly so in Plessy v. Ferguson which made segregation the law of the land. It is important to understand that the churches in the days of and following our founding were anything but apolitical. Fiery speeches were preached against the King, for and against the Constitution, endorsing or condemning various political favors, against slavery, and for other important areas of social reform.
Even after Reynolds, churches remained politically active from the pulpit until Johnson Amendment was passed in 1954. Historically it was a result of LBJs efforts to muzzle 501c3 organizations he saw as supporting his rival for re-election it's passage was a little hinky, slipped in with no explanation, no evaluation by committee, and passed on a voice vote, . (It appears that it was not the first time LBJ did some sharp maneuvering. According to the NYT, he won his first primary election in a runoff through ballot fraud. https://www.nytimes.com/1990/02/11/us/how-johnson-won-election-he-d-lost.html Many pastors have ignored it since then, some even sending transcripts of their sermons to the IRS challenging them to take action. I know of only two cases of attempted enforcement, and as far as I can determine both were dropped by the IRS on appeal. Curiously, there is no such prohibition of 501c4 organizations belonging to those very same 501c3s.
Since you went there, the fight for religious freedom was because the Christians in England were tired of the Church of England telling them what they had to belive about the Bible and Christianity. It was the GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE IN RELIGION that created the problem. Between that and heavy taxation, a war was inevitable.
No!! THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE. Without God and His church (believers) WE WOULD HAVE NO ‘STATE’ — NO GOVT. HE created it ALL thru founding fathers who prayed their way through the Constitution CAREFULLY addressing EVERY possible issue life would bring along!! It is WHOLLY AND HOLY BASED ON GOD’s WORD AND WE MUST ELECT GODLY BIBLICAL LIVING LEADERS OR LIKE OTHER NATIONS who have gone to destruction, so will we. THAT INE THING- GOD- IS WHAT MADE AMERICA GREAT. WE MUST STAND FOR THOSE PRINCIPLES OR WE WILL GO DIWN JUST LIKE BABYLON, SODOM AND GOMORRAH . GOD FORBID
THis is such crazy talk. Holy Toledo!!
👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌
😞Very sad that American Christians are “localised” believing if America can change, the rest of the World will follow their example!
This 3rd & final Matt. 24:14 “❤️🔥AWAKENING❤️🔥” (According to Gods perfect Plan - Not flesh based American Christians)… Was clearly Prophesied by Christ before He Ascended in this Scripture to include… “EVERY TONGUE, EVERY TRIBE & EVERY NATION” - The Ground around the Cross is level where everyone (Slave/Free, Male/Female, Gentile/Jew, American/Other are of equal importance!!!
I (“Not” from America) have been Downloading & Posting (As Led) from God about this “❤️🔥AWAKENING❤️🔥” since 13th November 2013 founded on Habakkuk 2:2&3… Contrary to American Christians seeking It… ITS “ALREADY” HERE, KICKSTARTED ON CIRCUMCISION SUNDAY 12/31/23 (1,2,3…1,2,3)… But “starts” FIRST with a Matt. 16:17-19 🔥Taking Away” (Binding) & only then “Replacing” (Loosing)🔥” in, through & from Gods John 3:3 “People”! (⛔️Any other way is of the flesh & Psalm 127:1: “Labouring in vain” for NOT Building It Gods Way!)
For more understanding & insight go to my FB Page of 10+ years: “A CALL FROM THE LORD”! Blessings, N
"Won" .... sooooooooooooo not true.
At the risk of sounding like Bill Clinton, it depends on what your definition of "winning" is.